Eh, "fixing" dual saber kata isn't as easy as it sounds. Being able to turn to watch people was obviously one of the kata's intended features. It's a pretty good one too.

If it is "fixed" people will stop using and learn how to bs and fbs. MOF, I don't use the kata unless it's an FFA and I'm stuck, in which case it's to be expected. I don't have a problem with the kata being spun in FFA. It's easily avoided and countered, regardless of what you may think.

All of the katas have a cool-down where the character is left without the kata moving, but they haven't yet established a defensive saber stance. I bs, lunge or rollstab them and they usually oblige by crumpling into a heap. The problem rises with multiple people try to do the same thing...then everyone ends up damaged or dead.

These aren't the most serious exploits I can think of, but because I'd rather keep my secrets, I'm not talking about them publicly. They got mailed into Raven, however.

Celas, I didn't look at the previous post in that way, but now that you helped clarify it I agree the butterfly needs to be opened up somehow.  I don't think the main problem is in just the ending though because I've died with full hp and shields when I sidestep near the beginning and barely get touched by the tip of the staff.  It sort of resembles the BS in JK2 1.03 where people purposefully tried touching the tip instead of the real part.  I think the previous comment before mine was right in the idea of changing the ramping up and down of damage.  That sounds like the best way to open up the butterfly.  But really I think we are just arguing the same point.  RAVEN DO SOMETHING ABOUT THE BUTTERFLY.

Ardent, I agree that there are counters.  Read all the above posts, and it is clear that everyone has found some way of countering.  In fact I and several others specifically mentioned the cooldown.  And yes for skilled players it is easy to avoid the dual saber kata spam, but it's sad when someone gets thousands of kills on noobs and claim to rock.  But I've seen the some players on the SDF and Jedimasters duel servers at BWN use the YAW concept to spam so many other moves, and it's a total joke.  One guy ranked in the top ten YAW'ed the basic staff strike so that a single strike did 70 damage without ever solidly connecting with the other duelist.  That's a major issue of balance.  And imbalances cause boredom for people who actually want to have FUN.  I think the real issue is that we are totally dumbfounded why Raven would make the same mistake again.  In JK2 it took them 2 patches to get rid of YAW exploits.  Why did they downgrade so far and let the same exploits crop back up?

To be honest, I started this thread not to try and convince lamers to stop spinning.  People who exploit something as unimportant as a game foolishly need some sort of fix like feeling like they are good at a game to feel important in life, so they will not stop doing such a stupid thing.  I started this thread in hopes that we would have enough posts (partially through debate like this) that a moderator from Raven would see it and think about it and maybe get patch fixes in motion like they did with JK2.

Being one who uses the lightstaff exclusively in well over a hundered hours of online play, I'd have to say that the perception of the butterfly not being open to attack isn't accurate.  I regularly encounter both single and dual saber wielders who are able to easily take advantage of it - to the point now that I'm hesitant to use a butterfly except for in key situations or to remove myself from a bad situation.

The lightstaff butterfly is a relatively locked move - there are only two points along the movement where one can alter it's direction, and once it has been commited it can't be stopped without using the other locked move crouch-twirl.  Both of these puts the wielder at considerable risk...

The lightstaff might seem powerful, but it has it's disadvantages just like all the other styles; and can easily be beaten by someone of any style with patience and timing.

To the original post... I agree.  The twirly bird dual saber thing is getting a little ridiculous.  I try to rarely use the lightstaff Kata, Twirl, and Butterfly unless absolutely necessary; but these FFA dual guys make it almost a requirement to spam those moves simply to stay alive.  I for one use an Optical Ball instead of a mouse, and whenever I see one of these goofballs do the dual yaw swirl thing, I'll simply hit the Kata and spin my optical ball really fast... has a devastating effect.

Don't see how they'll be able to patch that up though.  If you want to counter it easily, get an optical ball.

I stand by the comment that the only safe option is to get out of the way. It's certainly possible to kill someone doing it, but you're relying heavily on luck and whether the person doing the kata turns a lot of the time.

The reason I feel the damage ramping needs looking at is twofold; firstly it just plain needs a second or so of vulnerability like all the other specials. The entire point of a special move is to do increased damage at the price of increased vulnerability. The butterfly, and a yaw-hacked dual kata, grant excessive power with insufficient vulnerability.

Secondly, the butterfly animation is completely out of whack with the damage. Just sliding into someone towards the end of the move without the saber swinging can be an instant kill. Without any kind of visual cues, countering or dodging the move is excessively difficult.

To me, it would seem they just need to redo the damage ramping looking more closely at the animation for the move. Hitting during the point at which the saber is spinning should remain an instant kill, but the last few seconds of the move should do no damage.

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I don't have a problem with the kata being spun in FFA. It's easily avoided and countered, regardless of what you may think.

Let me try and keep it short; I've no problem personally countering or avoiding any move in the game. However, I find it extremely unsatisfying fighting against people who are constantly spamming these moves simply because they're an easy alternative to actually learning how to chain saber swings. A good fight to me is one where the players draw upon their experience in chaining regular attacks into combos, with specials used sparingly after an opponent has been set up.

There's a great deal of complexity and reflexes involved in performing a swing in exactly the right direction at the right time in any stance other than single saber strong (which is a lot easier to chain swings with). Even single saber strong takes a long time to master to the point you're certain exactly what swing is going to come next, and can attack reliably while jumping or backflipping.

There is, however, very little complexity or reflexes involved in pressing both mouse buttons then pressing a key to activate a spin script. And yet, this results in a devastating attack which insta-kills everyone next to the player.

Without the ability to spin on the spot, or even fixing of the yaw exploit, this move would be fine. But it's currently overpowered, without question.

The side effect of these overpowered specials is that few people are taking time to learn the nuances of dual sabers and the staff, relying instead on holding attack down and running round doing specials. In Jedi Outcast anyone doing this would be hacked down quickly, yet in Academy the specials, combined with the incredibly damaging and unpredictable attacks with duals and the staff (both have regular swings that can do 100 damage) make flailing wildly pretty effective.

In essence, the problem with Academy is that whilst it (like Outcast) provides a really good system for standard attacks, that lets the experienced and fast player pick and choose their attacks with great precision, it also provides some overly powerful and easy to do special moves that devalue these standard attacks, to the point even the best player thinks 'ah, screw it, may as well grab duals and load up a yaw script'. What's even more frustrating, is that reducing these specials to a sensible level would consist of simple and minor changes.

At first kata's kept getting me in JA and it was driving me nuts...but I kept on watching people doing them and eventually it became second nature to avoid them, even if I'm right next to them mid-swing, you get a half second warning they're gonna start a kata which gives u time to get away, then you get a 1/2 second at the end where you can attack (rolling works wonders) and kill them.

Kata's are powerful because they're supposed to be powerful, just look at the beautiful blade trail they leave, of course they have their weaknesses, those two short 1/2 second gaps at the beginning and end which gives anyone, especially a veteran, the chance to get in their to kill. So they already have their vulnerability just watch them more closely and you'll see how easy it is to get in there for a kill without need of luck.

Here we go again might as well jump in hip deep.

1. The dual saber kata is dull and boring I watch him shake my head and walk over and WHACK! hes down no matter how fast his yaw speed is all you have to do is wait till its close to ending and the sabers are coming back to his hands and attack him at that point.

2. Butterfly I dunno if I'm the only person who noticed this but you can break any move with red stance (here I was thinking all Lucas could do was screw up code) If you move and smack the butterflyer he will get in this weird pose and wont be able to do any damage but since butterfly is on a set path or distance he needs to travel he will basically just move forward in that weird pose allowing you to smack him and kill him

3. The dual roll and back-swipe this is were I have no answers other then Lucas and raven didn't play-test the game but Ill point them out anyways. A single saber roll attack does maybe 50 to 70 damage while a dual saber roll attack can do 150-200 why? because the coders are lazy and made shortcuts instead of programming different lines they just basically did a 2X act so if a move does so much for single saber then its 2X WHATEVER the move is for dual this is pretty much the same for staff.

Dual Back swipe is also a bit scary because its another one of these high powered boring maneuvers look hes running back-wards swings kills but were it gets really crazy is this thing kills you if your next to him not behind him. Also another case of the single saber only do minimal damage yet duals getting crazy damage because of the 2 times  damage.

My personal hatred is the strafe damage (note this one goes above the simple lamers and requires a bit of skill) but basically while swinging dual or staff you move left right left right, etc etc etc all while standing in the same spot now you would think this isn't bad but when you do this you override the parry command and you hit counts as if he was defenseless without a saber so all hits count for over 100 and if you wanna say its skill go right ahead but all it is to me is a high powered cheese move instead of actually swinging.

For god sakes I've gotten called a lamer or an exploiter because all I did was swing my red saber not once did I use special or Kata and I ended up getting labeled as a one move wonder. the state of JKA mp is so sad when you look and remember the JO mp community and how much fun that was.

But thats just my opinion I could be wrong.

You're not wrong, just had bad experiences.

From what I've played, loved every minute of it, not had any problems, #### I've even been so lucky as to not hear complaints in servers!

It's a game of two halves hehe bad pun