"From my own point of view “developer-communities” for games now seem to be working under a (philosophical) model which is quite bluntly, outdated.

The community has been split for several years now; I think it’s become extremely dysfunctional. One of the first cases of evidence for this was a breakdown of communications with mappers and players (Hoony wrote an article about this issue years ago), however this has to an extent been resolved but to no means a completion of development.

The requirements for a “developer-community” (i.e. mappers and modders combined) have also grown and become more complex. I think we need some kind of standardization for all of this, because as arQ said himself, it seems like everyone is duplicating each others work and that’s a real waste of time from a “developer-community” POV and also confusing from the players POV as well.

I think overall, if there was a “flow” for the communities it would go along the lines of GAME DEVELOPER > DEVELOPER COMMUNITY > PLAYERS and backwards along this line of thinking as well.

This “flow” to me makes sense: the players get more out of their mods and games because the developer-communities get more robust tools / better “base game platforms” to work off, and that in turn gets the game companies producing better mod friendly games for post-sales lifecycles. It’s all about a "better model" for feedback really, communication is the key.

I’ve noticed in recent years that feedback between game companies and developer-communities as well as players has dwindled to nothing. This is a really bad thing if you ask me, look at the ways that Quake and Quake II were tested and developed – active community involvement!!! One only needs to take a look at those games and see the results.

Back then the players felt like they were important to the game companies, and now it seems like each company is trying to beat the other with their technologies rather than care about their fan base and game quality. If a company wants real power in the gaming world, support your bloody fan base people! Make things more malleable and listen to the suggestions of your fans. You were gamers once too!

I really feel this is becoming a big issue, because for the past few years (well really, post Quake 2 if you ask me) we’ve seen standards of games dropping drastically while technologies become even better. Shouldn’t the two work in parallel? Is the gaming industry going to wind up the like Star Wars prequels? Seems like it to me.

In summary I would love to see CPMA for Quake IV come out, but there are some major issues on a “developer community” level which need to be looked at soon otherwise mods and post game-sales assets will be released that are NOT of acceptable quality much like the games themselves are becoming. Depending on your POV, it would appear the modders and us mappers are doing what the game companies should have done in the first place.

Years ago, I’m sure me saying this would have been laughed at, but all you need to do is take one look at how big the gaming world is getting right now, and realize that such things need to be taken into consideration. Modding and mapping are approaching a birth of their own industry and those of us who work within it, especially for the competitive gamers, make a lot of effort with our work.

The bigger picture is this – the need for a competitive platform for FPS is now obviously high. Game companies churning out pieces of junk which are technologically great gets our communities nowhere (mind you, I love Quake IV despite its issues).

We need unification, soon, somehow.

Regards
The Hubster
http://hubster.challenge-au.com/"

Hitting the nail on the head ring any bells?

Quote

Back then the players felt like they were important to the game companies

You touched exactly the sensitive point.
While I know most mod-dev from the community just want to help, some by the past has claim right over help or ideas they gave to company... Which involve sueing, and blah blah blah...

Sadly, company had to take mesure to protect themself.

But thinking that dev doesn't read and/or reply to player/modder post is false! However, they try to make it... more secret?
Unlike you think, many devs read players feedback and try to aim their next product that way.

You maybe didn't notice, but Raven tryed to make Q4 a lot like Elite Force, which was a real success.
And... probably based on review and feedback from fans.

IMO, the Single Player is really a blast.
And since I really like the Q3 gameplay, the Q4 MP is a graphicly boosted Q3... Which I'm far from disliking.

As for Q4 issue... For me both MP and SP work flawlessly. The world of games on PC is a special one.. There is sooooo many different drivers, parts, cards and stuff that people can put in their computer that would come f*** up a game on PC... It's just crazy. However, a console is always conform to specification, making devs jobs a lot easier. As games codes get more and more complex, don't be surprise to see more "unstable" games. But don't be fool! Q3 had how many patched? If I remember well, they stopped at version 1.32... 32 revisions?

Mod commuinty is helpping, there been configs, fps lowering maps, just no one notices

You make a good point about how many patches/revisions Quake3 had Speed.

But it wasnt to long into Quake3's life that main issues were iron'd out, just hope its the same with Quake4.

Neil.

I dunno but I have the feeling that the community doesn'T get the respect as in the past, that's also no problem mostly cause most ppl buy the games in any case.  A pity...

The community is as repescted as before.
Simply, you have to understand, if it's harder for game company to make games with the new technology, if budget are busting, getting closer to the budget of a movie, if the man work for a single game can easily go up to 300 (Splinter Cell 3 : 336 people worked on it), how hard it's gonna be for modder to follow?

got to admit did feel bit like elite force :P since 1.0 was laggy then they bruogh out 1.1 which in way was better then 1.2 which was perfect ;) in some ways :P shame 1.3 didnt come out...

Jenny
God you are so right ,as much as I am a half brained nit wit the industry as a whole is going under lil by lil and it seems some devs want to talk to thier base but cant becuse it would hurt the  legale contact they made wif their partners *cough ID couch cough* I realy feel that if raven was not a big part of the game Q4 would be half the game it is today even saying that its pretty weak compared to everythign else us FPS gamers have palyed over the years.

Quote (U.S.S. Speed @ Nov. 04 2005, 8:22 pm)

You maybe didn't notice, but Raven tryed to make Q4 a lot like Elite Force, which was a real success. And... probably based on review and feedback from fans.

Raven has been selling us the same game over and over since EF.
if you open the pak for Jedi Outcast you will find references to "Munroe" as the main character.
they copy/pasted the entire code for EF into a folder called JO and then started tweaking.
(changing the artwork/textures and adding in the lightsaber weapon for example, which assigned damage based on a random-number-generator BTW, it was ridiculous)


point is, Raven have been re-packaging and re-selling the same game for years.
(technically each game is just a MOD of the last one)
thats why people are so bored with the gameplay of Quake4.
Raven only makes ONE game : it just looks different each time

--------------

its just like those side-scrolling jump&shoot games from nintendo.
they started with Mario then super Mario then suddenly they were adapting it to every disney movie ever made.
my son had "Aladdin" and "Lion King" and all that crap.  
and they were all the same game as Super Mario, the gameplay was identical, they just had different artwork.

(each one might was well be considfered a "theme-MOD" of the last one, it brings nothing new to the table;
just as Ravens' games are always just "MODs" of the current Carmack Game, they bring nothng new to the table;
they just replace the artwork)

its a "Cookie Cutter" philosophy of Game Development which stifles innovation and results in the SAME GAME being resold countless times UNTIL the gamer gets sick of the entire genre ALTOGETHER and just stops buying them.heh.


the more of these "lowest common denominator" (Raven-style) FPS games that flood the market, the more they will define the genre. until eventually everyone will stop buying them *yawn* and nobody will even make FPS games anymore.
(just as eventually, the market got fed up with "side scrollers" and stopped buying those too )

the industry will have to find a new "cookie cutter" and it won't be Raven.  
it will be some kind of third person adventure.. thing.
(Raven will effectively undermine the genre and put themselves out of job because they've been selling us the same game since EF1 )

Well, what Raven game was a mod of a Caramack game? Cyclones, perhaps, but that is a joke, not a game. Heretic, heXen, SoF, they are not mods, heXen especialy.